Neither. The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve. After death there is no longer any hope considered for them. A moral objection to eternal conscious torment (ECT) is that if sinners are tormented in hell for all eternity (or, to be more precise, the lake of fire), then God’s justice is never satisfied. Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and similar places of eternal torment have often been the subject of books, poetry, art, philosophy—even humor. Richardson hopes to make a robust case for traditionalism / Eternal Conscious Torment {hereafter ECT} by arguing inductively from soul immortality, often referring to her clarion cry of Mt. So what does Matthew 25:46 really mean? In my previous post, I summarized some of the strongest biblical arguments in favor of terminal punishment. Aka, having to do with an age. The word “aionios” doesn’t mean any of those things either. Forbidden Theology. I have no idea where Mr. Geisler got this definition for torment (that it is always self-inflicted), but it certainly wasn’t from the Bible. Does God really torment people eternally in hell? Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal. However, in this scripture, Paul ALSO affirms God as both invisible and immortal. In this post, I want to summarize the best arguments for eternal conscious torment (ECT)—the traditional view of hell where the wicked will experience never-ending punishment. A moral objection to eternal conscious torment (ECT) is that if sinners are tormented in hell for all eternity (or, to be more precise, the lake of fire), then God’s justice is never satisfied. Dan. Using Biblehub‘s online lexicon, we can see that the Greek word for punishment is “kolasin” which means CORRECTION. I can understand how a reader, uninformed about the background of this verse, might think of eternal, conscious torment. For now, here is another scriptural example of how God “pertains to” – without being limited to – what he creates: God is the “God of heaven and the God of the earth.” (Genesis 24:4-3) Which one cancels out the other? Actually hellfire doctrine is in the scriptures, but eternal conscious torment is not. Eternal Separation from God. Copyright 2019. So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. What does Matthew 25:46 mean? Regardless of what “destroy” really means — whether literal destruction or eternal torment — the fact is that it is God Himself who is doing the destroying (or authorizing the destroying). When somebody says that “aion” and “aionios” do not mean “ever” or “for ever,” he is not denying God’s immortality. What has compelled him to create his own personal and unbiblical definition for “torment” (that it is only self-inflicted)? The reason the bible doesn’t speak in such a ludicrous way is simply because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. Just because aionios is applied to God does not mean “aionios” automatically means “eternal.” God can pertain to the ages, and also be immortal, and the scriptures testify to both as you will see. Matthew 25:46 is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. Why? 17 comments. Copyright © 2020 Hell, Hades, and the Afterlife. But for Christians to ascribe such activity to the Creator of all mankind is simply terribly misguided thinking.”, I have read and agree to the terms & conditions. Which is the reason why we need a resurrected body designed for such an occasion. Buried deep within our consciousness – in our subconscious mind – is this part of God that we do not like. Eternal conscious torment is immoral by nature To accuse God of enacting eternal conscious torment would make God immoral. But, at closer examination, both of logic and the scripture, it actually falls apart. If a cat is both fuzzy and gray, affirming that the cat is gray does not deny the fuzziness. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell. Featured An argument for "eternal conscious torment" Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Ripheus27, Sep 5, 2018. This article was edited from Chapter Six of HELL KNOW. save hide report. Eternal conscious torment is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great and infinitely glorious God. Your email address will not be published. Of course it does. How much more so the prospect of subjecting a person to everlasting fiery conscious torment? Also, consider the fact that the King James Version and the New International Version both use “torment” and “torture” interchangeably. Additionally, and curiously enough, in the King James Bible they translate eis aion aion (meaning – “unto the ages of the ages”) as forever and ever. All four traits apply to him. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. 1 year ago. The problem with this line of reasoning begins with the first premise. 2:4). Subjecting a person to torment is torture. His CT Interviewer, Mark Galli, who himself has written on the topic affirmed that he too was agnostic after looking at the evidence. As we’ve demonstrated, though there is punishment, it is corrective – which automatically should disqualify “eternal” as a possible translation if given only the two options of: age-long & eternal. This is actually a merciful action on God’s part. The fact that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27) should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than mere temporal creatures passing through time toward oblivion. 6. If it is literally a punishment that they cannot return from, then the punishment will remain in effect. Which one cancels out the other? However, the former two have now largely fallen out of favour, and even across the thousands of denominations of Christianity the ECT view has taken an extremely dominant position. Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal. Amen. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” –Jesus (Matthew 10:28). However, we do see that “aionion” is used to describe God himself, who is certainly not temporary – which is a large contributing factor in the confusion. Theologians and pastors I trusted sounded logical when they reasoned “if life is eternal, punishment is also eternal, because the same Greek word, “aionion“, is used for both”. This still does not prove a hell of endless torture. And, God’s judgment also pertains to the ages. In an interview a few years ago he stated, "My description is neither an annihilationist view nor an eternal conscious torment view." No verse in the Bible gives an expository description of what hell is or what it's about. Because, though God could theoretically torture someone for all eternity, how could he correct someone for all eternity? But Mr. Geisler argues that eternal torment in the lake of fire is self-inflicted, living with the consequences of one’s bad choices, therefore it’s not torture. He continues in the interview to explain that while he went back and strengthened the chapter on the eternal conscious torment of the damned, after studying the topic he is really agnostic. It’s the verse that fire-and-brimstone pastors love, but the verse that squashes the hopes of those who are hoping in their hearts, that surely God has a better plan for the universe. Of course he does. Matthew 25:46 is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. Is this so difficult to understand? We are so persuaded of our position, and so confident in the Scriptural evidence presented on this site, that we honestly do not believe that anyone who shares our faith in the final authority of Scripture will be able to cling to endless torment after reading this entire site and the links. All rights reserved. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. In this episode of The Remnant Radio, Jordan Sutton is coming on the show to discuss conditionalism. Second, we have reason to believe that those in hell will … To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all. At a superficial level, that seems fine. In his recent book arguing for universalism, David Bentley Hart explains why he abhors the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment. ... Hell is the LOF, as the LOF is the place of eternal punishment, which is the definition of hell. My thesis is both positive and negative. And finally, I leave you with a powerful quote by Gary Amirault: “A loving Father knows how to bring correction to His children without consigning them to an endless torture chamber. This is known as the eternal conscious torment (ECT) view. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. Few passages from the Old Testament are cited as evidence that hell is a place of eternal torment. So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. Second, sins of the damned can be eternal in that sinners continue to sin throughout eternity. Really, it doesn’t because the very concept of eternity defies pluralization of itself. The problem with the idea that eternal conscious torment does not benefit God or the one that God punishes is that it mistakenly assumes there must be a benefit to God and to those punished. First, here’s the definition of correction understood in today’s use of English: MacMillian’s Dictionary also has the same understanding: “the action of changing something in order to make it correct or accurate”, This is important to highlight because the English word “correction” understood today still maintains the original purpose first used in Old English that came from Latin origins: “corrigere” – which means to ‘make straight, bring into order’. Simply put, aionion doesn’t mean eternal any more than angry means happiness. One of these passages concerns the torment of fallen angels. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary. It is that eternal conscious torment is not in those texts. It is His nature; there is no anger or fury in love; fury is not in me, Isa. Their reasoning is that because this adjective is applied to life promised to believers (John 3:16), God himself (Romans 16:26), and punishment (Matthew 8:18), the word automatically means “eternal” on that basis alone. Neither. ... We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. Consider this simple illustration: If I took a man, tied him to a chair, and tormented him for five minutes with a lighter, would this not be a form of torture? The reason the bible doesn’t speak in such a ludicrous way is simply because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. See for yourself by simply looking up these texts in both versions: Matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7 and Revelation 9:5. So how on earth did “agelong” and “eternal” – two diametrically opposing concepts – get BOTH placed as possible definitions for the same word?! The Greek scholar, A.E. Eternal Punishment. In Defense of the Eternal Conscious Torment View of Hell February 29, 2016 Preston Sprinkle Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Eternal Torment. Tyrants and a few demented earthly parents may do such things to their children. It wasn’t until about a year later that I picked my research back up and realized both words “hell” and “eternal” punishment are not found in the original languages of the Bible AT ALL! Furthermore, I have not yet heard what the conditionalist means by benefit. Now let’s address the common misconception: “But if you believe Christians will have eternal life, then “aionion” has to mean eternal, which then forces you to admit that punishment is also eternal since the same Greek word is used to describe both.”. Nearly all the evidence provided for the doctrine of eternal torment in a fiery hell comes from the New Testament. What I think is more important for this specific discussion though is to note that most pastors who study this verse completely ignore the Greek word that is translated as punishment. Okay, so the correct translation is “agelong“? You’re telling me that God didn’t even mention ONCE for thousands of years about this place called hell? These Christians point to biblical references to eternal punishment, as well as eternal elements of this punishment, such as the unquenchable fire, the everlasting shame, the "worm" that never dies, and the smoke that rises forever, as consistent with the traditional doctrine of eternal, conscious torment of the non-believers or sinners in hell. Therefore, eternal conscious torment is not true, since God is not immoral. Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019. 14:10–11). It’s crystal clear that adjectives describe their related nouns – this is just how language works. Of course not. He believed “eternal punishment or chastisement was simply the punishment or correction that pertained to eternity. God is big, even bigger than the universe, but is He limited to being big? Tartaro:Definition 1. This destruction is sometimes seen as accomplished by fire, and sometimes it is preceded by a period of conscious anguish and suffering before it is consummated in eternal … Before arguing for one meaning of death and against another, it is important to understand the opposing view. Some recent writers such as Anglican layman C. S. Lewis [86] and J.P. Moreland [87] have cast hell in terms of "eternal separation" from God. ( 1 John 2:2 ) the weaker, though common, arguments that are often given for ECT eternal., arguments that are often given for ECT not the same position — that of never-ending conscious suffering blessed... Pertain to the wicked in hell will … eternal torment in a series blog! 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